Where have REAL American Bicycles gone? America used to manufacture and produce so many cool things. Where did it all go? Why do we here in America have to buy EVERYTHING from a country offshore? I'm not trying to get political at all, but something drastic has changed here right before our eyes. In our lifetimes. I was looking at the pics that were submitted of an old Schwinn bike store. I used to go to John's Bicycles in Pasadena, California to get my bike stuff. Schwinn meant quality, just like the Chevys of the 40's, 50's, and early 60's. What happened? Can we not make great products here at a profit anymore? Looking at all the great old bikes here and reading the places of manufacture on the badges makes me wonder if this is all part of some grand plan. Is it over-regulation of business? Is it OSHA? Taxes on businesses? Unions? The tree huggers not wanting ANYTHING made out of steel to be made here? It is really sad. Just sad. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. What do you think?
Where Have Real American Factories Gone?
- Thread starter Larmo63
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World economy, to many manufacturers have found that it cost to much to employ Americans. Wages insurance, retirement plans and greed have sent our jobs over seas where there are no benefits for labor. It needs to change before we become a 3rd world nation where there is rich and poor with no middle class. However it does seam that i can build a bike for less now than i could growing up in the 70s and 80s. I guess on one hand thats good for me on the other thats bad for the economy and industries here in the states.
Just my thoughts.
Just my thoughts.
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It is a couple of things. First it is that it is just cheaper for a business to build a factory over seas and to have the product made there and shipped back here to sell. Second, the trend in growing nations goes from pre-industrial to industrial revolutions, then it tends to go to where it is more of a head of the business country where it delegates work to other places. Part of the reason it is cheaper is the government regulations, but that is not the entire reason. In a few generations there will probably not be that many factories in america of brands that are well known. This is excluding car manufacturing because shipping cost of an automobile is very high.
I guess I'm just kinda fighting progress, if you want to call it that. I miss the old Schwinn shops. I miss REAL things. The stuff in bicycle stores, (to me,) seems so junky and throw away. Unless you want to spend $1500+, it is garbage. Fake. Maybe that is why we are so interested in collecting, restoring, riding, and talking about these fascinating old machines? I'll bet the average age of the folks on this site is a bit older than one might think too. Anyway.......
we still make airplanes and microchips...and bombs.. but unless its a high dollar item, our labor structure (unions) can't seem to figure out how to man the factories properly , add in greedy shareholders and corrupt management, and hello Bejing..
scrumblero said:
Only partially true... I have worked in the busines jet industry for the last 21 years, in that time I have seen the progression of outsourcing to Mexico and even China. The business tends to be cyclic with peaks and valleys every 6-7 years. The hard part is seeing thousands of your friends and family members getting laid off.
The company I work for has made it perfectly clear they intend to continue offloading... outsourcing... insourcing every bit of subassembly and "non core" work. They want our plant to become a final assembly and delivery point, period.
The U.S. worker CANNOT compete with the labor rates of these other countries, simply not gonna happen. I make more in one hour than most of these workers make in one week.
What I think is the most important part, the quality... We do build a high quality product, now throw in the outsourced parts and pieces and the quality has nowhere to go but down. You would think this would be important to the CEO's shareholders, etc... All they want is to build the product CHEAPER, not necessarily to pass the saving on to the buyer either.
So if the corporate world has their way, they will eventually DESTROY a name that has been in general avaition for over 75 years. Sad times. Corporate greed is fueled by Wall Street. Is this the beginning of the end? I think its too late for a wake up call.
So what replaced these thriving, flourishing factories in Ohio, Chicago, and New York? ....Blight, drugs, and projects? Look at the city of Detroit. It used to be the model of industry and commerce with all cylinders, (so to speak,) firing. Contrast that with the city of Nagasaki, Japan, which was obliterated by a nuclear bomb, "Fat Man," in 1945. It is now a dynamic, fluid, metropolis. Why not here? I just don't get it. We used to make vacuums, irons, bicycles, washers and dryers, (we still do,) all kinds of things. We somehow need to get back to a balance of fair, liveable wages, and quality products. Can we as a nation? At least in MY lifetime, please? I wonder.
We want to make high wages but we don't want to pay the higher cost for something that was made by someone making high wages.
Instead of buying one quality US made product we're greedy and will buy many cheaply made Chinese products. IMHO of course.
I believe a companies first priority is not to make a quality product but to make their shareholders money.
A while back I seen a manhole cover that was stamped "made in China" or somewhere overseas. I can't believe something as simple to produce and that heavy is cheaper to produce overseas and ship here.
Instead of buying one quality US made product we're greedy and will buy many cheaply made Chinese products. IMHO of course.
I believe a companies first priority is not to make a quality product but to make their shareholders money.
A while back I seen a manhole cover that was stamped "made in China" or somewhere overseas. I can't believe something as simple to produce and that heavy is cheaper to produce overseas and ship here.
I think you're overlooking something, besides cheaper wages overseas. The problem with qualitystuff is that it takes too long to break down. The industries don't want your bike or car to last 50 years, no matter where it is produced. They NEED you to replace it every 10 years at least. And that causes global decay of quality imho. Over here we still produce dutch bikes, but compared to the good old days they are simply tomatoracks on wheels. Unless you shelve out big money it's a lost cause...
Absolutely true Ace!
I remember my parents owning the same tv and a hi-fi set for over 17 years before breaking down. After that the got new stuff almost every year... I was beginning to suspect companies (each and everyone of them) to make inferior products just to keep the companies going. But it's not only the companies 'wrongdoing'. They wouldn't survive if the people in general wouldn't accept the inferior products... I think it's more of a society-thing now, to want new things sooner and sooner. For instance... If I look at my friends I just can't believe how easy they throw away their one year old cellphone just to get the latest version of the same thing...
I remember my parents owning the same tv and a hi-fi set for over 17 years before breaking down. After that the got new stuff almost every year... I was beginning to suspect companies (each and everyone of them) to make inferior products just to keep the companies going. But it's not only the companies 'wrongdoing'. They wouldn't survive if the people in general wouldn't accept the inferior products... I think it's more of a society-thing now, to want new things sooner and sooner. For instance... If I look at my friends I just can't believe how easy they throw away their one year old cellphone just to get the latest version of the same thing...
Two years ago I replaced my 20 year old fridge, and nobody would believe it still worked fine. According to my gf it was just the wrong color and used to much power. A friend is still using it to this day. We took the wrong turn years ago... :|
My 1959 Eico HF81 hifi is still cranking out the tunes, and I haven't changed any tubes in it. That company is long gone though.
Worksman bikes and Aerofast (Emory) bikes are still made here, and they are tough, but expensive.
Worksman bikes and Aerofast (Emory) bikes are still made here, and they are tough, but expensive.
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I feel the biggest thing is WE create the demand for what is produced. Everything we BUY creates the market for that item. EVERY decision we make affects the market. Think back to your last purchase......what did YOU buy?
Few examples:
Say you buy a bike
Japanese Schwinn $89
American Schwinn $300
Say you buy a new headlight for that bike
Made in China light with cheap chrome that wears out in a year $19.50,
Made in USA light with chrome that lasts almost forever $52.99.
We look at a new car to haul that bike around
a Chevy is $30,000,
a Toyota or Hyundai is $15,000.
Many times the small decisions to save some bucks make our AMERICAN companies obsolete without us thinking about it. I try to support my local flea market.....And I'm cheap :mrgreen:
And I repair things till they CAN'T be repaired again.....then I look for another used one.
Few examples:
Say you buy a bike
Japanese Schwinn $89
American Schwinn $300
Say you buy a new headlight for that bike
Made in China light with cheap chrome that wears out in a year $19.50,
Made in USA light with chrome that lasts almost forever $52.99.
We look at a new car to haul that bike around
a Chevy is $30,000,
a Toyota or Hyundai is $15,000.
Many times the small decisions to save some bucks make our AMERICAN companies obsolete without us thinking about it. I try to support my local flea market.....And I'm cheap :mrgreen:
And I repair things till they CAN'T be repaired again.....then I look for another used one.
It's very enlightening to read how the few companies that are left, are continuing to manufacture in America.
Worksman Cycles is surviving in one of the most expensive labor markets in the USA- the NYC area. Here's a little insight in how they do it:
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/s ... age52.html
But lately I've been reading dire things. I work in a paper mill. We produce large rolls of brown paper called Linerboard or Containerboard. It's the outside of a corrugated cardboard box. (We don't make the wavy stuff in between, seems funny but that stuff is lower quality than our machine makes!) The site we work in had an older white-cardboard machine that's now been removed. It started production in the 1870's and ran right up to 1995. They produced printed boxes of all types- think everything from a cigarette hard-pack to an oil-filter box to the boxes toys come in. The entire printing line, many presses and carts and handling machines and so on, was disassembled and shipped to South America, where they don't care as much about inks and dyes in the water or how much oil or coal or gas you burn.
The new mill is amazingly efficient, in terms of energy, personnel, recycled fiber recovery, and production speed. We do more with less than virtually any other plant in the country. But as mentioned, I make a lot more than most folks do at a Chinese plant (Nine Dragons Paper, for example, our biggest, and fastest growing competitor).
The big threat to our industry, and to our country really, is that the supply chain is collapsing. By this I mean all the small companies that produce *something* we use. Could be electric motors (US Motors, i.e. Emerson Electric, has already moved a lot of production to Mexico) or belts or pulleys or copper wire or stainless steel pipe. In any of these industries you'll find good old companies have been driven into the ground by cheap foreign competition. And WE are doing it to ourselves- we constantly have these bean-counter CFO types who want the job done a little cheaper, .... the quality, just look at the bottom line. It might keep some places going a few more years. But in the end we rob ourselves of the ability to even acquire the parts we need to fix our own machinery.
Some industry magazines have said it's already too late. They might be right. I've read in others (10 or more years ago) that "if you haven't begun moving your manufacturing offshore" you'll be left behind. I'm glad my company is still here and so are our suppliers and customers- paper is darn inconvenient to ship. But I worry what the next 10 years will bring.
In a way I hope the "downturn" we all went through, are going through now, will level the playing field, reveal the true costs of importing so much, and help bring American wages in line with the rest of the world. The quality of (primarily Asian) imports is often terrible compared to older US made products. (My Craftsman vise I bought last year actually has a sticker on the box over the shipping weight, which says "41 LBS" over the box-printed "43 LBS"... and oh yeah, that Craftsman item is now made in China.)
Buy American whenever you can - the job you save just may be your own.
--Rob
Worksman Cycles is surviving in one of the most expensive labor markets in the USA- the NYC area. Here's a little insight in how they do it:
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/s ... age52.html
But lately I've been reading dire things. I work in a paper mill. We produce large rolls of brown paper called Linerboard or Containerboard. It's the outside of a corrugated cardboard box. (We don't make the wavy stuff in between, seems funny but that stuff is lower quality than our machine makes!) The site we work in had an older white-cardboard machine that's now been removed. It started production in the 1870's and ran right up to 1995. They produced printed boxes of all types- think everything from a cigarette hard-pack to an oil-filter box to the boxes toys come in. The entire printing line, many presses and carts and handling machines and so on, was disassembled and shipped to South America, where they don't care as much about inks and dyes in the water or how much oil or coal or gas you burn.
The new mill is amazingly efficient, in terms of energy, personnel, recycled fiber recovery, and production speed. We do more with less than virtually any other plant in the country. But as mentioned, I make a lot more than most folks do at a Chinese plant (Nine Dragons Paper, for example, our biggest, and fastest growing competitor).
The big threat to our industry, and to our country really, is that the supply chain is collapsing. By this I mean all the small companies that produce *something* we use. Could be electric motors (US Motors, i.e. Emerson Electric, has already moved a lot of production to Mexico) or belts or pulleys or copper wire or stainless steel pipe. In any of these industries you'll find good old companies have been driven into the ground by cheap foreign competition. And WE are doing it to ourselves- we constantly have these bean-counter CFO types who want the job done a little cheaper, .... the quality, just look at the bottom line. It might keep some places going a few more years. But in the end we rob ourselves of the ability to even acquire the parts we need to fix our own machinery.
Some industry magazines have said it's already too late. They might be right. I've read in others (10 or more years ago) that "if you haven't begun moving your manufacturing offshore" you'll be left behind. I'm glad my company is still here and so are our suppliers and customers- paper is darn inconvenient to ship. But I worry what the next 10 years will bring.
In a way I hope the "downturn" we all went through, are going through now, will level the playing field, reveal the true costs of importing so much, and help bring American wages in line with the rest of the world. The quality of (primarily Asian) imports is often terrible compared to older US made products. (My Craftsman vise I bought last year actually has a sticker on the box over the shipping weight, which says "41 LBS" over the box-printed "43 LBS"... and oh yeah, that Craftsman item is now made in China.)
Buy American whenever you can - the job you save just may be your own.
--Rob
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That's a big problem because it's hard to find American made stuff anymore nobody carries it because the Chinese stuff is cheaper and lower prices are better for customers. Unless you drive down to the local Amish village and buy stuff there that they make themselves, you'd be hard pressed to find American goods to buy. Next time you're at Wal-mart try to find ONE THING that is made in America. Then count how many Chinese goods you look at before you find that one American item.
P.S.: Don't start your search in the electronics department.
P.S.: Don't start your search in the electronics department.
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Larmo63 said:
Oh yeah I bought some tools and stuff there a few times, then returned it within the week to get another one... :roll: Bought a generic sawz-all there to scrap a car with and the blade holder broke before it even touched the car! I pulled the trigger to see if I had power and it just fell out.... :lol:
What REALLY gets me is they are made in china but have AMERICAN names like Chicago and Pittsburgh. :roll:
