Decisions...Decisions... :wink:
Puzzle Bike...
- Thread starter bikeriderx
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wow, thats a cool find!!! i even like the color. definatly some unique features on it. sometimes things work out for a reason.
I'm pretty sure the original color was blue. Then someone painted it green, then yellow...I see a lot of paint stripper and/or a sand blaster in my future... :mrgreen:
bikeriderx said:
Check this out...here is what I need the rear stand for.
http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15896
Just looking thru my Elgin/JC Higgins?Hawthorne book, which features original catalog pages. Looks like you have a 1935 Elgin swallow, ladies companion to the Oriole! Earlier models had 28" rims, and the '36 has truss rods. I have a similar one in my collection, but it's a junior model with painted fender(s) and a smaller frame. Score of the year, man! ~Adam
~Adam
Dude! Maybe A '36...My Chainguard is a little different...
Holy F**K!!! A 1935...! I'm Gonna' falll out now...!
Rustinkerer said:Just looking thru my Elgin/JC Higgins?Hawthorne book, which features original catalog pages. Looks like you have a 1935 Elgin swallow, ladies companion to the Oriole! Earlier models had 28" rims, and the '36 has truss rods. I have a similar one in my collection, but it's a junior model with painted fender(s) and a smaller frame. Score of the year, man! ~Adam~Adam
Weeelll...The puzzle continues...I emailed with pics Dave Stromberger from nostalgic.net and he thought the bike was a Columbia...! He said: "Hi Randy... I'm not sure its an Elgin. The sprocket design suggests maybe Columbia, or at least, built by Columbia. The year though would be between 1934-1937. Almost every manufacturer made a bike that looked almost identical to that during those years. Dave Stromberger"
So I did an internet search and found this:
http://www.columbiamfginc.com/faqs.html Which IF she's a Columbia...I guess would make her a '39...S/N: D512963...The puzzle continues... :mrgreen:
Hi, the bike you have may have been badged as a Rollfast, a Hawthorne, or an Elgin as well as many other more obscure possibilities. It was actually built by the H.P. Snyder Company of Little Falls NY. They produced that model as a balloon tire bike beginning in 1934 and replaced it with a different frame style for their 1936 model lineup.
The style or relationship of the top and down tubes as they swell upward and forward is the give-a-way that the Snyder company produced this frame. It is definitely not a Columbia which was produced by Snyder’s main competition at the time; the Westfield Manufacturing Company. (the pale blue bike in the other photos is a Westfield product)
Snyder manufactured bicycles which were then marketed by the D.P. Harris Company. Harris in turn badged their line of bicycles as Rollfast and also sold Snyder bicycles to many distributors which badged them for many different brands.
Sears did not make their own bikes and relied on several different outside manufacturers to populate the Elgin line. The 1935 Sears catalog shows pictures of Snyder supplied boy’s and girl’s Moto-Balloon models and the girl’s model is a match to yours. The previous and following catalogs depict Westfield supplied models which made up most of the Sears line at that time.
The frame is also a match to models badged and sold as a Montgomery Wards Hawthorne. Wards was more closely related with Snyder and sold much more of Snyder’s output than Sears.
While Rollfast, Hawthorne, and Elgin are all badge possibilities, the pattern of the crank sprocket is not typical of any of the three and may mean the bike was originally badged and sold as one of the less common brands.
If you strip back the paint and can locate the badge holes and/or a ghost of the original badge shape you may be able to pin down who sold the bike.
The serial numbers for Snyder have yet to be broken down and decoded. Taken as a whole and over time, several patterns seem to present themselves. But… “D” serial numbers do seem to slot into 1935 without much prodding.
Lastly, the bike looks quite original except for the seat and horn. The horn was probably added in the late 30’s and the seat after the war. The original seat would have deeper square springs. The bars and stem also look a bit later than the bike. The horn is a nice unit for a later bike and the other parts should not be hard to find if you decide to look for them. The biggest challenge will be to straighten the fork though most of the damage looks to be in the steerer tube.
You have a nice score with this one. I think that is one of the prettiest standard girl’s frames from the period and they are not as common as the 2nd and 3rd series Snyder girl’s prewar frames.
The style or relationship of the top and down tubes as they swell upward and forward is the give-a-way that the Snyder company produced this frame. It is definitely not a Columbia which was produced by Snyder’s main competition at the time; the Westfield Manufacturing Company. (the pale blue bike in the other photos is a Westfield product)
Snyder manufactured bicycles which were then marketed by the D.P. Harris Company. Harris in turn badged their line of bicycles as Rollfast and also sold Snyder bicycles to many distributors which badged them for many different brands.
Sears did not make their own bikes and relied on several different outside manufacturers to populate the Elgin line. The 1935 Sears catalog shows pictures of Snyder supplied boy’s and girl’s Moto-Balloon models and the girl’s model is a match to yours. The previous and following catalogs depict Westfield supplied models which made up most of the Sears line at that time.
The frame is also a match to models badged and sold as a Montgomery Wards Hawthorne. Wards was more closely related with Snyder and sold much more of Snyder’s output than Sears.
While Rollfast, Hawthorne, and Elgin are all badge possibilities, the pattern of the crank sprocket is not typical of any of the three and may mean the bike was originally badged and sold as one of the less common brands.
If you strip back the paint and can locate the badge holes and/or a ghost of the original badge shape you may be able to pin down who sold the bike.
The serial numbers for Snyder have yet to be broken down and decoded. Taken as a whole and over time, several patterns seem to present themselves. But… “D” serial numbers do seem to slot into 1935 without much prodding.
Lastly, the bike looks quite original except for the seat and horn. The horn was probably added in the late 30’s and the seat after the war. The original seat would have deeper square springs. The bars and stem also look a bit later than the bike. The horn is a nice unit for a later bike and the other parts should not be hard to find if you decide to look for them. The biggest challenge will be to straighten the fork though most of the damage looks to be in the steerer tube.
You have a nice score with this one. I think that is one of the prettiest standard girl’s frames from the period and they are not as common as the 2nd and 3rd series Snyder girl’s prewar frames.
rms37...You are my new bf!!! You Rock!!! :mrgreen: Thank You!!
~Randy
~Randy
So I've been busy trying to research this "Puzzle Bike"...Thanks again to all who've added to the solving of the puzzle! I have been reading "Schwinn Bicycles" by Jay Pridmore & Jim Hurd. And what should I come upon on page 40/41 of the 1996 pub. ed....
Hmmmmm...Looks alot like mine:
So I do a little "Photo(bucket)shopping":
That looks alot like my chainguard...
Now here is an extremely emphasised copy of that photo...Don't pay attention to the color...Just the shape of the chainguard. Note: Count the holes...16
MIne...16 holes:
So we agree that it's a pre-war bike...The authors don't date (very unfortunately) the brouchure...But based on the context of the chapter it's from the 1920-30's...The bike dipicted has only one frame "stiffener" (the short piece running perpendicular to the frame rail) and mine has two:
Soooo....The bike in the brouchure is a 1920/30's and mine is an (improved) 1930/40's....? Wadda' 'ya think? I'm still psyched! :mrgreen:
Hmmmmm...Looks alot like mine:
So I do a little "Photo(bucket)shopping":
That looks alot like my chainguard...
Now here is an extremely emphasised copy of that photo...Don't pay attention to the color...Just the shape of the chainguard. Note: Count the holes...16
MIne...16 holes:
So we agree that it's a pre-war bike...The authors don't date (very unfortunately) the brouchure...But based on the context of the chapter it's from the 1920-30's...The bike dipicted has only one frame "stiffener" (the short piece running perpendicular to the frame rail) and mine has two:
Soooo....The bike in the brouchure is a 1920/30's and mine is an (improved) 1930/40's....? Wadda' 'ya think? I'm still psyched! :mrgreen:
Artist's renderings in old catalogs aren't always correct in their details, and many makers used some common parts, or leftover stock. I'll assume you meant prewar and not postwar as stated in your posting. I think given the bike's proportions that is still a good bet. It also looks to me as if there might be room for 28" wheels in there, a bigger bike might have the second down tube crossover.
deorman said:
My bad...Yes...Pre-War(post edited)...Too many wobbly pops...More comments...?
the two bikes dont even look the same, you should look more closely, the frames and forks are difenitly differant, I believe that rms 37 Phil has the more experience and knowlage, I dont believe that Schwinn ever had a triple blade fork,
Soooo...You think it's a H.P. Snyder....How do you explain the chainguard..? Common part? My question is: "What is it"...?olschbp said:
Hi again, Bikeriderx,
Here is a bit more information to add to and clarify my first post.
The chain guard on the bike is an accessory that turns up frequently on girl’s bicycles from the teens through the mid 1930’s. It was used by many different manufacturers and was also available aftermarket so it is fairly useless for determining who produced a bicycle.
One of the key things to understand when trying to determine who made any American bicycle from the 1930’s is that there were only about a dozen companies in business at that time producing bicycle frames and/or complete bicycles. After a while (about 10-20 years) it becomes relatively easy to look at virtually any frame from this time period and discern the manufacturer. These same companies distributed their product to hundreds of distributors, chain stores, and bike shops so from about a dozen manufacturers you ultimately have thousands of “brands” and badges. While determining the manufacturer is rarely a problem, unfortunately no amount of expertise will help determine who sold a generic bike once the head badge has been removed.
The Schwinn Catalogs depict single tube type bicycles that were available before and shortly after the advent of balloon tires in 1933-34. Pre balloon bicycles are generically more similar brand to brand than their balloon counterparts.
Again, thought, it is clear that the girl’s Schwinn in addition to utilizing only one brace between the top and down tubes also has a signature shape defined by the placement of the brace/braces and the curvature of the fore tubes. As Olschbp mentioned, the triple plate fork on your bike is also not the type used by Schwinn.
This is where knowing the range of frames offered during the period leaves Snyder as the only possible source of the frame/bicycle you have. Your bike, (and Snyder) have no corporate relationship with the Schwinns although both manufacturers purchased chain guards from the same outside manufacturer.
As noted the earliest balloon models were essentially single tube bikes fitted with balloon wheels and tires. Your bike falls into this category as do many of the bikes that used stainless rain gutter fenders. The bike you have would have been available from Snyder before balloon tires as a single tube model and likely could still be had either way when it was built.
To reiterate what I posted earlier, your bike could have been produced in 1934, 1935 or very early 1936. Snyder serial numbers have yet to be fully decoded but for the sake of argument I would refer to the bike as a 1935 Snyder built moto-balloon, original brand/badge unknown.
Here is a bit more information to add to and clarify my first post.
The chain guard on the bike is an accessory that turns up frequently on girl’s bicycles from the teens through the mid 1930’s. It was used by many different manufacturers and was also available aftermarket so it is fairly useless for determining who produced a bicycle.
One of the key things to understand when trying to determine who made any American bicycle from the 1930’s is that there were only about a dozen companies in business at that time producing bicycle frames and/or complete bicycles. After a while (about 10-20 years) it becomes relatively easy to look at virtually any frame from this time period and discern the manufacturer. These same companies distributed their product to hundreds of distributors, chain stores, and bike shops so from about a dozen manufacturers you ultimately have thousands of “brands” and badges. While determining the manufacturer is rarely a problem, unfortunately no amount of expertise will help determine who sold a generic bike once the head badge has been removed.
The Schwinn Catalogs depict single tube type bicycles that were available before and shortly after the advent of balloon tires in 1933-34. Pre balloon bicycles are generically more similar brand to brand than their balloon counterparts.
Again, thought, it is clear that the girl’s Schwinn in addition to utilizing only one brace between the top and down tubes also has a signature shape defined by the placement of the brace/braces and the curvature of the fore tubes. As Olschbp mentioned, the triple plate fork on your bike is also not the type used by Schwinn.
This is where knowing the range of frames offered during the period leaves Snyder as the only possible source of the frame/bicycle you have. Your bike, (and Snyder) have no corporate relationship with the Schwinns although both manufacturers purchased chain guards from the same outside manufacturer.
As noted the earliest balloon models were essentially single tube bikes fitted with balloon wheels and tires. Your bike falls into this category as do many of the bikes that used stainless rain gutter fenders. The bike you have would have been available from Snyder before balloon tires as a single tube model and likely could still be had either way when it was built.
To reiterate what I posted earlier, your bike could have been produced in 1934, 1935 or very early 1936. Snyder serial numbers have yet to be fully decoded but for the sake of argument I would refer to the bike as a 1935 Snyder built moto-balloon, original brand/badge unknown.
OMG!!! (The profanity police willl work on me...) Thanks rms37 and olschbp...!!! However I've got to admit...I'm still not sure what I've got here...Maybe it's not identifible? Is the best I can do is a pre-war ladie's bike? Here is a wrinkle..Help me re-produce the skirt guard.....
