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MattiThundrrr said:
The fire risk for internal combustion is 20 times higher than electric.
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Then why does it cost more to insure an electric car in California than a gasoline car?

MattiThundrrr said:
7 billion people breathing in the toxic fumes this year vs several electric fires this year
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You assume that the production of electric cars does not generate anything toxic, and just the opposite is very true. All the real pollution on an electric vehicle takes place during the production process and then you must amortize over the life of the car.

As I said, there is no good data on this.

We do have data on how many African kids are dying in cobalt mines digging up the minerals for these batteries.

A good deal of the electricity required to charge these cars is made by burning coal. It’s not just the tailpipe emissions that we have to worry about. That’s only a small part of the puzzle.
 
Ulu said:
Then why does it cost more to insure an electric car in California than a gasoline car?
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Ask a California insurance agent? I can't figure out why it costs more to insure a motorcycle than a car. My bike cost $2300 and they wanted $1800 a year for a policy.

Ulu said:
You assume that the production of electric cars does not generate anything toxic, and just the opposite is very true. All the real pollution on an electric vehicle takes place during the production process and then you must amortize over the life of the car.
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Nope, I considered that. Gas cars are manufactured too. The difference is the battery, which is more than offset by the horrors of oil production. We have tar sands in Canada, I have friends who worked that mess

Ulu said:
A good deal of the electricity required to charge these cars is made by burning coal. It’s not just the tailpipe emissions that we have to worry about. That’s only a small part of the puzzle
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Yes! We agree, fossil fuels should not be used to generate power!
 
They are more expensive to insure because they are easy to damage and far more expensive to repair.

MattiThundrrr said:
Yes! We agree, fossil fuels should not be used to generate power!
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But they are, which means that (so far) electric cars are just another scam to make you feel good as you spend money.

MattiThundrrr said:
Nope, I considered that. Gas cars are manufactured too. The difference is the battery, which is more than offset by the horrors of oil production. We have tar sands in Canada, I have friends who worked that mess
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Go read about the horrors of rare mineral mining for these cars. The cobalt for those Teslas is being dug out of the ground by little African kids. Little kids will never own a car are dying so people can have Teslas.

The battery cells are being manufactured by horrible companies in China. They treat their workers like dirt but we buy their batteries and feel good about it.

The only reason electric cars can be manufactured so inexpensively is due to cheap foreign labor. We don’t look at these things when we are judging the subsidized costs.
 
Everything nowadays has to be some kind of phobia? Really?

It’s not about fear.

It’s about the fact that we haven’t finished doing our homework and we turned it in anyhow.
 
Ulu said:
The battery cells are being manufactured by horrible companies in China. They treat their workers like dirt but we buy their batteries and feel good about it.

The only reason electric cars can be manufactured so inexpensively is due to cheap foreign labor. We don’t look at these things when we are judging the subsidized costs.
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Dude. You act like everything isn't made that way. It's not just EVs. If you want to discuss labor practices and the evils of capitalism, we can, but it feels like that's a politics thing.
https://equalocean.com/analysis/202...rom China,industry as "international models".
Ulu said:
It’s not about fear
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This started as a thread with you shouting about the exaggerated dangers of electrical fires. You started with fear
download (1).jpeg


Ulu said:
We don’t look at these things when we are judging the subsidized costs.
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Another factor that we haven't discussed is the wars waged over oil.
https://energypost.eu/twenty-first-century-energy-wars-oil-gas-fuelling-global-conflicts/
"Oil and gas are, after all, the world’s most important and valuable commodities and constitute a major source of income for the governments and corporations that control their production and distribution. Indeed, the governments of Iraq, Nigeria, Russia, South Sudan, and Syria derive the great bulk of their revenues from oil sales "
Is nation rebuilding factored into the costs of oil?
"As the United States learned to its dismay in Iraq and Afghanistan, nation-building is expensive: institutions must be created and financed, armies recruited and paid, weapons and fuel procured, and infrastructure maintained. "
 
Not everything is built in China.

My Tacoma truck was built in Baja Mexico by Mexicans. My Toyota car was built by Americans in a Subaru plant in Kentucky. (It’s the most trouble free thing we have ever owned, except for our other Toyota.)

You can buy a mainly Chinese car if you like. One of my favorite cars was built in Canada. More than one actually.

I prefer that we make things here in North America. We don’t always do it better, but I think that we can always do it better.

I’m not here to tell you to be afraid of electricity. I’m just here to tell you to be aware of bad engineering and sloppy manufacturing.

Having worked in industry my whole life I can tell you that it is pervasive.

MattiThundrrr said:
Another factor that we haven't discussed is the wars waged over oil.
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I think it’s against the rules.
 
MattiThundrrr said:
View attachment 257479

This is pretty cool, you could convert your old gas guzzler to electric
https://canev.com/Think how many lives could be saved by the elimination of tailpipe emissions alone.
https://www.epa.gov/mobile-source-p...ns contribute to,and/or immune system damage.
Doing some research, these things are really reliable! 400k miles, 15 trips around the equator! Too bad the company owner is so musky

https://www.fleetandleasing.com/lea...el S vehicles,S has been improved repeatedly.
"Elon Musk made a bold statement a few years ago that Tesla batteries should last between 300,000 and 500,000 miles. As more Teslas approach and pass the 300k mark in the UK, we’ll find out just how accurate that statement was"
Is he genius, or just edge lord?

I always was interested in the motorcycle side of it, Zero makes some cool stuff, and a motorcycle doesn't have to face the frozen battery challenges.
View attachment 257480
"Since its launch in a Santa Cruz garage, Zero has defined the category of premium electric motorcycles and powertrains. Zero has sold over 20,000 vehicles that have accumulated over 165,000,000 miles of on-road and off-road experience. "

View attachment 257481

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
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I personally had never heard of Zero as a bike maker, let alone electric!
About 6yr ago I delivered some feed on a farm in beaudesert, AU, the farmer rocked up on this fantastic looking dirt bike, i'd never seen anything like it, all blacked out and silent, He gave me a ride, He was confident I could handle it as my truck was a kenworth which means absolutely nothing, but he allowed it so I had a blast!
Well this thing had a set of grapefruits like no other! tons of torque and handled great! I likened the performance to a honda XR 600, or a DR 650 suzi, just a good thick power band. range was 80km but he said it had never run out! recharged nightly, it was soon after this Harley Davidson released the all electric bike, I cant remember the name of it but that had performance reviews that had people smiling a bit but it was the silent nature of a Harley, Hmmmmm not sure how well they sold, I havnt followed that one for a bit but what im trying to say here is the electric performance is unmatched....its the energy required to run them and where we get it thats stumping everyone the world over and at the end of the day, to be good for the mass's ,requires some sort of (dare I say it) political involvement, and we all know the cascade effect involved with that!
Anyway heres a couple pics of that ZERO, I rummaged through the old files and found em LOL, and it was just 5 yrs ago....and i now remember the elctric harley called the "Live Wire"...I think!,,,,, in the pic you can see the built up cow poo splashed up from the front wheel as he follows the cows in for milking, He did state that the cows are now way more relaxed without the petrol motors,,,although the monthly check from the dairy company hasnt reflected any results LOL.
IMG_20171103_075630.jpg



At first it felt really strange with no controls on the left side of the bike...no clutch lever and no gear selector! 3 times he told me before I stopped trying to find the gear shift, I tried 3 times and he laughed everytime.
on the right side is the same as any other bike, throttle, front brake and rear on the foot!
its just throttle and brakes on the right so after a a minute you do forget.....although I still went for the gear shift to go into neutral when taking it back!
IMG_20171103_075453.jpg



And no tank, I do see some dirt/motard bikes now have the tank at the rear and the seat go's all the way up like this one!
I used to pull up in the truck and the Auger system swung out and I climbed that silo to open the lid! I then carefully reverse the truck so the sock at the end of the auger drops in the silo top! it can be tedious but my reversing skills are great, this happens when owning small trailer boats for yrs LOL!

IMG_20171103_075420.jpg
 
Cycledelic68 said:
How dare you?!
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The audacity is stunning, and yet it continues
https://www.americanprogress.org/ar...y-tactics-are-fueling-democratic-backsliding/
https://davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can-do/how-to-stop-oil-and-gas-industry-misinformation/
They are always trying to shift the blame onto the consumer, anything but let them realize that they are the problem
"did you know that the very notion of a personal carbon footprint — a concept that’s completely ubiquitous in discussions about personal responsibility — was first popularized by BP as part of a $100 million per year marketing campaign between 2004 and 2006?"
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/09/oil-companies-discourage-climate-action-study-says/
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/06/26...vail-despite-oil-industry-misinformation.html
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
 
Yeah, it all sounds great on paper.
Meanwhile, used EV prices have fallen in cold and wet climates. They have fallen so much it has depressed the price of new EV’s.

BUT, those cars will still sell.

People here in the desert will buy them, because it doesn't get cold enough to be a problem, and it doesn’t rain much here, so they won’t be under water.

There’s 4x as much sun as Canada, so solar charging is more common.

The batteries stay warm.

The desert is really the best place for EVs, but you fellows in the snow belt won’t fare so well.
 
Electric vehicles are not yet the superior product, & Certainly not the best value.

They are certainly desirable in many situations.

Or they would be, if they were not overpriced & heavily compromised.

But I live in a a place where none of that really matters. Here, every rich person who wanted to show off signed up to buy a Tesla right away.

And the more expensive the better, because while the virtue signaling was important, signaling wealth is even more important in California kar kulture.
 
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What about steam power? :grin:
Steam Power Record

I find it interesting that media keeps continuing in the CO2 scare, while no one ever mentioned biodiversity. Or the fact we, these days build a lot of stuff that is made to end in the garbage after a short use...

Isn't the bicycle just a magnificent piece of engineering?
The fuel needed:
  • Is a lick of grease every few thousand kilometers. A little oil for the chain.
  • Food and water for the rider.
Emissions: Farts.

Then grow that food in a 'regenerative agricultural' manner. But I can judge relatively easy, I can utilize the Dutch cycling infrastructure :thumbsup:

Many people I know ride these electric bicycles, but I never heard of fires from them. No accidents with water or cold...
 
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I sent my latest response in private, and if anyone wants to read it they can PM me.

Remember that I wanted to talk about the engineering and manufacturing issues, and NOT about the politics.

But some are being political AF to get the discussion stopped.
 
JamMe said:
Prices have fallen and will continue to fall. That's usually the case with any product. First it's expensive, then there are more of them, as well as more producers, and so the price goes down.
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Demand here in the Sunny San Joaquin valley is actually still very high. For all cars.

The bullet train they’ve been building us for 10 years is not even even halfway there. Automobile traffic which it was to supplant has grown a lot, so when (if?) the train is done it seems they’ll need two more just to be where we are now.

Given current conditions, that is, but I do not think they will continue.

That leaves Amtrack and Greyhound. Maybe future people will uber long distances?

Spiraling cost of autos, gasoline, repairs and parts, will keep many young folks completely out of the business in the future.

BartRidesEternal said:
What about steam power? :grin:
Steam Power Record

I find it interesting that media keeps continuing in the CO2 scare, while no one ever mentioned biodiversity. Or the fact we, these days build a lot of stuff that is made to end in the garbage after a short use...

Isn't the bicycle just a magnificent piece of engineering?
The fuel needed:
  • Is a lick of grease every few thousand kilometers. A little oil for the chain.
  • Food and water for the rider.
Emissions: Farts.

Then grow that food in a 'regenerative agricultural' manner. But I can judge relatively easy, I can utilize the Dutch cycling infrastructure :thumbsup:

Many people I know ride these electric bicycles, but I never heard of fires from them. No accidents with water or cold...
Click to expand...
We generate some electricity here by burning garbage in a very high temperature manner, which produces very little in the way of pollution.

They don’t talk about it much, because it’s very unpopular to have a combustion source.

People think we are turning all those greasy ketchup bottles they recycle back into new plastic.

We are turning them into kilowatts.
 
Much like e vehicle disinformation, plastic recycling was another trick the fossil fuel industry used in order to obfuscate the environmental impact of oil. Anything but put the onus on whom it belongs, oil producers

'"If the public thinks that recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment," Larry Thomas, former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, known today as the Plastics Industry Association and one of the industry's most powerful trade groups in Washington, D.C.'



https://www.cbc.ca/documentarychann...lution crisis,burned or dumped than recycled.
 
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