BO15 4-4-2

[Wildcat]

I'm in but have no frame yet. I have no idea of what kind of frame, just that it will be an old cruiser style of some kind. I'm moving back to the Philippines and will get a frame as I get settled in. I'm going to visit a shop in Manila that has more old bikes than I ever expected to find. BZKLETA Bikes. They are the only place I've found over there with classic bikes. I'm hoping to get one of those up on the wall.

I can only ship smaller items, so I have been stockpiling and sending over bike parts ahead of time. My new forks and seat came in today. They are already wrapped up and ready to ship. I'm just waiting on travel restrictions to let up to move to our new house.

This build will incorporate a Bendix original skiptooth hub and chain. They will be used as a front braking system. I have the Hawthorne chain wheel also, but it probably won't be used.

The drivetrain is something that I don't have yet. No cranks or hub. I can't find the SRAM 2 speed anywhere so the SA kickback is looking good. I need to look in the for sale section here again first. A yellow or red band kickback would be great. I think I'll need a lower gear with the weight of the bike.
I'm using 26 x 3 whitewalls, so I have to add some spacers to the fork for width and most probably make some dropout extensions for the unknown frame to make it fit.

I measured the springer today and it just needs a couple of spacers about a half inch wide. It needed nylon or brass washers on the pivot points anyway.
If the unknown frame is wide enough in the stays then it may be good to go, but I also want to make a rear suspension with the dropout extensions. I have an old spring from a Schwinn springer for that. I am planning to have everything bolt on.

For parts that need to be fabbed up, I'm going to support the local economy and have them made at a metal fabrication shop. Over in the Philippines, they are different than what you might see here in a shop. Gloves and safety goggles, even welding hoods are optional. They wear sunglasses to weld with. Yikes!
I don't have rims or a rear hub yet, but I have a friend over there who build wheels that I'll employ for both wheels.
I have a leather Brooks type seat I got several years ago but saw another one on Amazon and couldn't resist the price. The wife and I have done a lot of shopping online since the coronavirus took over. So, I always need to get something to make the cost of shipping free. That's how I got my seat and springer with some other bike stuff without having to beg.
I'm using the old handlebars and stem from my 42 Hawthorne. I think the bars were from a girl's bike, they are half moon but not that large. They will work for this build though.

Just a frame, cranks, and wheels is all that's needed.

 

[OddJob]

Wildcat in the mix! Sounds like you've got a pretty solid plan for the build. I wonder if that's the shop @kingfish254 visited on his trip to the islands? I'll bet you springer forks to donuts it was!
RaT oN~!

 

[Wildcat]

Yes that's the same one. It's the only one I've found in my 10 year search.
https://bzkleta.weebly.com/

I visited there in Nov 2014 and took some pics. I used tinypic back then so all the pics from the post I made are gone. Here's an excerpt from that thread:

"It was pretty cool when the bike patrol guys took us all through traffic like VIP's. And that's not even all of the bikes there. They just moved there, I heard about them from member Joe Conde here. He is still inventorying everything so there weren't any frames up for sale yet. Most of those bikes are spoken for, and the 3 frames I pulled out of a pile were already pegged for restoring. He gets some offered to him that are too far gone for a good restoration, so I may have a chance to get those. I settled for a good look around and some parts for my MBBO and sidecar bike."

Because it's 4 hours from my location, I tried to sked a visit along with my VA appt. in Manila. I only had 30 minutes to look around. I could have stayed for hours. Back then my budget was too tight for a whole bike so I didn't buy one then. It will still be a challenge to get there and back, because the traffic adds hours to the trip. Maybe I'll get a frame for this build AND a whole bike!

 

[Wildcat]

I measured the fork arms on the springer. The 26 x 3 tire will touch the fork crown with it's 14" radius. That's not a problem because I planned on making rockers for it anyway. That will give a few more inches vertical clearance and raise the front of the bike. It should give it a better look too. I also have to widen the forks but should be easy to do. I'll find out when I actually get to work on it.
I used my limited computer skills to make up my springer rocker idea. This is my first time at it, I spent an hour doing these diagrams. The rockers will bolt up solid and not have any movement, the only moving part will be the pivot at the crown.

With the springer as bought. The tire will rub the crown and sides.

With rockers. I tried several shapes and didn't like any of them. So I just went with round ones, probably 5 or 6 inches in diameter. I kept the fork arm and strut fairly close together to avoid having any wobble. The slot for the wheel axle is a couple inches long to allow different positions. I can raise it higher or lower to get the best handling and/or look.

 

[horsefarmer]

More limited computer skills on display.

Maybe recycle rear drop outs from a cheapo kids BMX bike?
Some of them are pretty hefty.

 

[Wildcat]

I just noticed I could add another set of 3/8ths holes for the struts to move the wheel more forward of the forks if need be.

 

[kingfish254]

Definitely the same place. If you make it back over to Bzkleta, please tell Lee and Rea hello for me. Great people and just an awesome place. Kinda like the Filipino Chesnut Hollow or Bicycle Heaven. Incredible collection of bikes.

 

[Wildcat]

I'll pass that along. When is a big question, even when they open everything up, I'll fly into Clark, not Manila. Much cleaner and hardly any traffic. It's the old Air Force base we had there years ago, about an hours drive on the good highway from my place.
So I'll need a good reason to ride 8 hours for a bike. That's a good enough reason for me, but not everyone understands the value of a classic bike. I have a brother in law that lives in Manila, so I'll get there somehow.

 

[Wildcat]

Sitting around, there's nothing to do but order more bike stuff!

I've got a couple of little things along with a new SA kickback hub coming.

I was going to buy my bike back I sold in 2017 when I left for Hawaii. I just want to get the SRAM automatix back, but haven't heard anything from the new owner so I finally sprung for a SA kickback. I've had a yellow band Bendix in the past and like the kickback shifting.
Now I'm working on an idea to make the bike 4 speed, kickback in the rear with manual shifting up front. I tried that once before with a walmart beast, but the coaster brake was too much for a derailler. I think I have that problem worked out now. The shifting at the cranks will be done while stopped, no shifting on the fly for low range or high range. Sort of like the old 4 x 4s that had to be stopped to lock in the front axles. Something like this bracket will be added that will lock into place when using the smaller chain wheel so it can handle the pull of the chain when braking:

 

[ParkRNDL]

Sitting around, there's nothing to do but order more bike stuff!

I've got a couple of little things along with a new SA kickback hub coming.
View attachment 123298

I was going to buy my bike back I sold in 2017 when I left for Hawaii. I just want to get the SRAM automatix back, but haven't heard anything from the new owner so I finally sprung for a SA kickback. I've had a yellow band Bendix in the past and like the kickback shifting.
Now I'm working on an idea to make the bike 4 speed, kickback in the rear with manual shifting up front. I tried that once before with a walmart beast, but the coaster brake was too much for a derailler. I think I have that problem worked out now. The shifting at the cranks will be done while stopped, no shifting on the fly for low range or high range. Sort of like the old 4 x 4s that had to be stopped to lock in the front axles. Something like this bracket will be added that will lock into place when using the smaller chain wheel so it can handle the pull of the chain when braking:
View attachment 123300

I recently rode a friend's Felt Rail 29er. It has a Sturmey kickback like that. Very slick.

 

[Wildcat]

I can't wait to give it a try. I liked the yellow band with its low gear. This one is direct drive like a one speed in low with a 38% step up, so I've been trying to figure out what size chain wheel will go with the 22 tooth cog that the hub has to give me a good low gear and a cruising gear. I figure the bike will have some weight, with 3 inch tires, old frame with a Bendix hub on the front and addons to the springer. I might add some other "devices" on it too. It will be at least 45 lbs of bike.
A low gear and regular ratio will probably work best. I'm guessing a 40 tooth chain wheel will give me the right ratio at 50 gear inches putting high at 70 gear inches. That's a guess, I'm not sure about those figures. Maybe someone here is a math whiz and can shed some light. I'm running 26 x 3 inch tires.
That's if my plan for 2 chainwheels falls through. I'm pretty hopeful my idea will work.

 

[horsefarmer]

Using this: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
I get these gear inches.

Of course the tire size is small 2.35 next bigger is 4" fat tire.
Also wide and narrow range hubs too, this is wide range.

 

[Wildcat]

I went through that page in depth, nothing else to do here but crossword puzzles all day. It doesn't have the new SA listed, they must be the old models made in England. (I would trade my new one for one of those), the gearing on the new ones are 1;1 and then 38% more in high. I checked the gear inches on that page using a standard one speed, with no gearing and came up with 48.0 the same as high gear on your page.
So I went to the site I used before and checked it out.
https://www.bikecalc.com/gear_inchesAlmost the same Gear inches came up when I used 2.35 tires. 48.61 Then calculated with 3.00 tires, the ratio was my 50.97, I guessed pretty close. So if I'm thinking right, I just take 38% of 50.97 and add it to get my high gear. Gives me 70.33.
To make it more complicated, two chain wheels will give 4 different gear inches, unless I'm unlucky enough to get two that just happen to be the same ratio. I'm not sure of the size of each chain wheel yet. That depends on what I have and what I can get in the near future.
Here's the plan for two chain wheels:
Use a one piece crank. I received a new one last month and will use it.
Use two different sprockets. I'm using 36 teeth and 42 teeth as a guess. Using the calculator, that will give me 46, and 63 on the smaller one, 54 and 74 on the larger sprocket. Since I'm thinking of a manual shift up front, I can leave it on either sprocket and ride pretty well.
I'll use concave sprockets so the teeth are situated away from the opposing sprocket. They will both go on the crank together. If the chain needs more clearance so it doesn't make contact with the other sprocket, I'll use a washer between the two, just enough for clearance.
Hopefully the cranks are wide enough so it all goes together without running out of threads. I think it will because there is usually a thick washer next to the sprocket, The second sprocket will use that space instead. Here's that washer:

The thing that will take up the slack in the chain when it's in low range has yet to be designed. I'm still researching that. I need something that doesn't require any tools and is hefty enough to use with the coaster brake.

 

[BartRidesEternal]

I went through that page in depth, nothing else to do here but crossword puzzles all day. It doesn't have the new SA listed, they must be the old models made in England. (I would trade my new one for one of those), the gearing on the new ones are 1;1 and then 38% more in high. I checked the gear inches on that page using a standard one speed, with no gearing and came up with 48.0 the same as high gear on your page.
So I went to the site I used before and checked it out.
https://www.bikecalc.com/gear_inchesAlmost the same Gear inches came up when I used 2.35 tires. 48.61 Then calculated with 3.00 tires, the ratio was my 50.97, I guessed pretty close. So if I'm thinking right, I just take 38% of 50.97 and add it to get my high gear. Gives me 70.33.
To make it more complicated, two chain wheels will give 4 different gear inches, unless I'm unlucky enough to get two that just happen to be the same ratio. I'm not sure of the size of each chain wheel yet. That depends on what I have and what I can get in the near future.
Here's the plan for two chain wheels:
Use a one piece crank. I received a new one last month and will use it.
Use two different sprockets. I'm using 36 teeth and 42 teeth as a guess. Using the calculator, that will give me 46, and 63 on the smaller one, 54 and 74 on the larger sprocket. Since I'm thinking of a manual shift up front, I can leave it on either sprocket and ride pretty well.
I'll use concave sprockets so the teeth are situated away from the opposing sprocket. They will both go on the crank together. If the chain needs more clearance so it doesn't make contact with the other sprocket, I'll use a washer between the two, just enough for clearance.
Hopefully the cranks are wide enough so it all goes together without running out of threads. I think it will because there is usually a thick washer next to the sprocket, The second sprocket will use that space instead. Here's that washer:
View attachment 123828
The thing that will take up the slack in the chain when it's in low range has yet to be designed. I'm still researching that. I need something that doesn't require any tools and is hefty enough to use with the coaster brake.

Big advantage on these cranks is: You can adjust the bearing races a couple of milimeters to the left or right. So you can make some room for the sprockets. I have the parts lying around and tried the idea before. Or one of the sprockets needs the 'bearings' thread, so you can 'lock' the left bearing cup.

The sturmey archer kickback is pretty neat! I like it a lot.

Good luck with your build, I am curious how everything works out!

 

[horsefarmer]

I would think you would need a pretty stout spring loaded tensioner to keep the chain on during breaking. Something like a lawn mower deck pto spring setup.

 

[Wildcat]

I tried springs before, the pull on a coaster brake chain has to be solid with no give. Since it's manual shift, I think this would work, just loop the excess chain over (or under) when changing sprockets. Its for motorized bikes as a tensioner, so it should be strong enough. Where it mounts up with be determined by trail and error. I'm using a coaster brake hub, so the chain will be shifted over by pedaling forward while the bike is up on its stand. I'm thinking the chain will be looped around the roller before pedaling the chain onto the smaller sprocket. Then it has to be out of the way when going back to the larger sprocket. It'll be a lot of trial and error.

 

[OddJob]

If you are not planning on shifting 'on the fly' I think your idea of the static chain tensioner will work. That motorcycle one looks stout and has some 'up and down' adjustability to it. I am interested to see how this all comes together!

 

[Wildcat]

I'm thinking of a way to shift on the fly and still make it a solid roller. I'll need two shift handles, one for the roller and one to move the chain left and right.
I'm getting closer to my big move. Just waiting on flights to resume. I keep collecting more parts. The roller and heavy chain just came in and are already in the box to be shipped over. The roller is heavier than I thought it would be, that's good.

 

[horsefarmer]

Pull lever to release tension on chain.
Pedal and turn twist grip to switch chainrings.
Push lever to re tension chain.

 

[Wildcat]

I see the concept there. The twist grip would work if there was some kind of spring tension to keep it in the middle position so it could shift the chain left and right. The little ball bearing could come out too so there wouldn't any click stops. I've used a lot of those twist grips in the past on my 3 speeds.

I had a more manual idea that takes less engineering. I got the idea from a lawnmower.
It has handles that lock the wheels in place at certain heights. Pull the handle and move it into the slot to lock it in. Reverse the procedure to change it back. Once the handle is in the slot, no up or down movement of the wheel is possible. That would hold the roller securely and allow movement while riding.

Then, for the matching crude derailler, I would use the same kind of handle and shift knob so it would match up to the roller control handle. It will be spring loaded so it stays in the middle position normally, not contacting the chain in either gear. The cage that engages the chain would be wide enough to clear both chain wheels. Push the lever to the right or left to move the chain to the other sprocket. It could have stops to make sure the chain didn't go too far and drop off.
To shift, go left or right with the derailler handle (if in low, release the roller first) to get the chain on the other chain wheel, then set the roller handle to tension the chain if dropping into low. In high that's not needed, the roller stays up out of the way.