1941 Wards Hawthorne

Rat Rod Bikes Bicycle Forum

Help Support Rat Rod Bikes Bicycle Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
64
Reaction score
0
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
get-attachmentaspx.jpg
 
Hi you have a rare Hawthorne All American. They were designed by Walter Dorwin Teague and produced for Montgomery Ward by both Cleveland Welding and H.P. Snyder. Small differences between the two versions will separate them but those differences are not discernable in the single photo. If the upper rear fender bridge is a straight tube the frame was made by CWC, if the bridge is arched then the frame was made by Snyder. The serial number on the bottom of the crank hanger will also show who made the bike and will be useful to date the bike. They were produced between 1940 and 1942.
 
Phil,

Ever seen this era of Hawthorne with a Cleveland Welding frame and Snyder Springer on it? I have a '41 Comet that to my knowledge is original as it sits. It's the CWC frame and Comet tank with a Snyder springer and stem.

Sorry for posting in the thread.....just the same era of bike.

Thanks

rms37 said:
Hi you have a rare Hawthorne All American. They were designed by Walter Dorwin Teague and produced for Montgomery Ward by both Cleveland Welding and H.P. Snyder. Small differences between the two versions will separate them but those differences are not discernable in the single photo. If the upper rear fender bridge is a straight tube the frame was made by CWC, if the bridge is arched then the frame was made by Snyder. The serial number on the bottom of the crank hanger will also show who made the bike and will be useful to date the bike. They were produced between 1940 and 1942.
 
SimpleMan said:
Phil,

Ever seen this era of Hawthorne with a Cleveland Welding frame and Snyder Springer on it? I have a '41 Comet that to my knowledge is original as it sits. It's the CWC frame and Comet tank with a Snyder springer and stem.

Sorry for posting in the thread.....just the same era of bike.

Thanks

I believe they did, and vice versa. Just as both companies used the 'forward star' chainring. -AdAm
 
Numbers on the bottom bracket are G01918,don't know if the O is an O,or a 0,lol. Then there seems to be a 3,to the right of the numbers,but it's sideways.
 
It has been a busy last few days so I am just getting back to answering the questions that were raised here.

For Byron

First of all the straight rear fender bridge is an accurate way of determining if the bike was built by Cleveland Welding (CWC) or H. P. Snyder so this is definitely a CWC sourced bike. The serial number is G01918 (letter and five numbers.) I wish I had an interpretation for the additional 3 stamped separately but I don’t. Many CWC frames have additional numbers but I have not been able to find a pattern in them to “decode”

Based on comparing the serial number to my database timeline, I project the bike was built in the summer or fall of 1940. Your bike has the 1941 paint scheme so it is later than the date that the summer/fall 1940-41 Catalog was produced (spring 1940?) which shows a different paint pattern but it is likely earlier than a true 1941 built model. In 1941 the catalog shows the All American model equipped with the Snyder single vertical spring fork rather than the CWC sourced Shockmaster unit that is on your bike and as is shown in the 1940 and 40-41 Catalogs. From 1941 on, all bikes in the catalogs with a springer are shown with the Snyder sourced unit (more on this below).

For Jeff and Adam

This brings me around to the question about the interchangeability of the springer forks on Hawthornes produced by CWC and Snyder.

The direct answer is that I have never seen a Snyder spring fork mounted on a CWC built Hawthorne that I believe is proof that the combination was originally offered. I recently saw a picture of a bike that may have been such an example but the photos were not good and the bike had led a rough life including a probable repaint so it falls short of my standards for proof.

So, Jeff, if you have an original CWC bike with a Snyder springer I would be very interested in pictures. I’ve been chasing the answer to the question for some time.

More broadly; the parts interchange between CWC and Snyder produced Hawthornes is complicated. The bikes start with a frame made by one manufacturer or the other and some of the parts (fenders, fender braces) used were always produced by the “home factory”. Other parts were specific Hawthorne “identity parts” like the Hawthorne “throwing star” chainring that was used by both factories but only on Hawthorne bikes. Finally, there are parts that were made by one manufacturer but used on bikes by both companies.

The CWC Shockmaster springer is one such part. It was first offered on Hawthornes in the 1939-40 Catalog and is shown only shown on CWC sourced bikes in that catalog but it was also listed as an optional add-on for any 26” Hawthorne bike at that time.

In the 1940 Catalog the pictures are all of Snyder built bikes (excepting perhaps the newly introduced All American model which is not clearly discernable for manufacturer but is probably a CWC bike) but those models shown with springers are shown equipped with the CWC Shockmaster fork

In the 1940-41 Catalog the bikes depicted are again CWC sourced and the catalog goes on to extol the virtues of the CWC Shockmaster as the best springer available on the market. Every model shown is optionally available with the Shockmaster fork excepting the All American on which the Shockmaster is standard.

In 1941 the catalogs switch to depictions of the Snyder springer exclusively, the underlining fact though, is that at that point in time all the illustrations that can be attributed to a specific manufacturer show Snyder built frames again.

Clearly from examples in the hobby today both CWC and Snyder were both major suppliers to Montgomery Ward from 1936 on regardless of which bikes were pictured in the catalogs. Why the illustrations shift back and forth in the catalogs is open to speculation and there are several obvious possibilities.

With regard to the springer issue it is my take that between 1939 and early 1941 only the CWC Shockmaster fork was used and it was available on both the CWC and the Snyder produced bikes. After the beginning of 1941 it is less clear how the springer forks were allotted but from the examples I have seen I am inclined to believe that CWC forks were still used on both but the Snyder springers may have been only used on Snyder frames.

So, if anyone has information, pictures, or original bicycles that prove otherwise, as I said, I would be interested in seeing it so the question can be put to rest.

Thanks for the questions.

Phil
 
Phil,

I argued the point with the guy I bought it from that it wasn't original. He showed me a 1941 ad in a Hawthorne book ( I don't have it to tell you the page, it's the one most popular out there) The ad shows the Comet tank ( I think this tank is CWC only) with the Snyder springer on it. Did Snyder produce a Comet tank also?

It will take me a few days but I will get it out and photograph it for you.

Jeff
 
Two more answers on prewar Hawthornes:

Byron:

Unfortunately the All American uses a tank that is specific to that frame and it is very hard to find. It is not the same shape as the relatively common post war straight-bar CWC tanks nor is it the same as the slightly more common CWC tall straight-bar tank from 1941 and 1942. I would say it is an 8.5 or 9 on the 1-10 hard to find tank scale. Your best bet if you seriously want a tank is to advertise for one on the CABE or the Ballooner list to get the word out you are looking for one but it is the sort of tank where ‘free agent tanks” often glom to projects and you usually need to buy a whole or project bike with a tank to get one.

Jeff:

The Comet tank is much easier to find but comes in several variation. Comet tanks were used on both CWC and Snyder pre-war frames. Some are generic and others seem to be manufacturer specific. When I see the pictures of your bike I’ll let you know what I think about it specifically and point out some more of the features that separate CWC and Snyder Hawthorne production.
 
True… If the upper rear fender bridge on your Prewar Hawthorne is an arched rather than a straight tube then the frame is not a CWC product and was most likely produced by Snyder (or Monark or someone else in a small batch). Post pictures for more info.
 
DSCN1316.jpg

bought at flea market in Illinois, must be a H.P. Snyder product. I just bought one
on Ebay that has a tank, project, but IT HAS THE TANK!! I'll sell off the Shockmaster,
seat frame, and fenders, so what do the vultures need? Let me know, it is a complete
bike and It will be parted out. When I get it, I'll post pics.
 
I would be interested in being able to pinpoint a date of build on mine.... there are numbers on BB and numbers halfway down and upside down just above BB on seat tube....

004-2.jpg
 
Seems original, I thought it was a Cwc bike until I read this thread. Shockmaster fork, both Lobdell rims, Crest Deluxe tires, rear stand, rack, (looks somewhat like a Schwinn, but welded to a seat clamp thingy.) Nice seat, I think a Troxel?, EA front light, good rider. Thanks for any help on it I can get. I'll post a serial number if anybody cares.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top