1931 Claud Butler track bike

Rat Rod Bikes Bicycle Forum

Help Support Rat Rod Bikes Bicycle Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Sep 17, 2013
Messages
4,201
Reaction score
9,080
Location
The middle of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
I'm just going for a rebuild as everything is original. The spokes were a little rusty so they have been replaced. I need help, advice, ideas regarding the wire wraps that were on the spoke crossover points. Now a days they use 5 wire wraps that are then soldered. My original crossover reinforcements looked more like hog rings. Does anyone have any knowledge of this technology or how to approximate it? I can’t find any hog rings that have a small enough diameter. Here is a before replacement
photo.
20200722_225055.jpg
20200722_224912.jpg
 
Last edited:
I’m starting on building new wood wheels. The original wheels were1931state of the art as track racing sometimes involved a lot of money then. The original tubular wheels had 303 mm double butted spokes with 1.8 mm at the nipple end and 2 mm at the hub. The tapered butted part away from the nipples started about 3 inches from the nipples. I couldn’t find any of these. They needed respoking so custom threaded spokes were obtained, with some difficulty with sourcing. The original nipples were used. The spoke crosses were hog ringed and soldered, not wire wrapped as is done today. I’m going to try this. This made the wheels stiff and would accelerate with no flex when a big strong guy put his all into it. A big reason for clincher replacement of the tubular rims is that tubular track tires of around 40 mm are mo longer available. The original tubulars look good and hold air, but they are getting worn. The replacement spokes aren’t here yet, slow With Covid.
image.jpg
image.jpg
 
this is cool.
Yeah, I can’t find any other ones on the net, no pictures. There are Claud Butler catalogues on line and I found it there. Research let me interpret the BB numbers. One number was for the frame builder, another for the painter and the third was the Butler serial number. This bike was custom made for each racer. Butler had an Olympic champ working for him and he had the frames made for each customer. His initials are on the seat tube decal. He was an amateur so they used the initials DHS for the model (Dennis Sutton Horn).
 
I’m still waiting on spokes. My original order was canceled as they were out of my sizes in silver. Everyone has black. I was finally able to find one vendor that had the front length in silver and a different vendor for the rear ones. I hope they arrive in the next two weeks. I’ll post the wheels after I lace them. These will only be the second set of wood wheels that I have built.
 
I switched this bike to the unofficial March Build Off and didn’t finish it there either. The wheels are done. The headset and bottom bracket have new bearings. I’m now waiting for pedal ball bearings and a cog spacer to come in the mail. This bike was designed to race on banked tracks, flat paved ovals and grass. Because you can’t coast with fixed gear on flat track corners the left pedal has a shorter shaft than the right. The spokes were also interesting. They were 1.8 mm at the wheel and 2.0 mm at the hub. They were double butted with the thick butted part of the spoke very long, about 3 inch. I’ve never seen a spoke with that long of a thick part before it tapers. The spokes were rusted and bent so new straight gauge 1.8 mm spokes with the original nipples were used in the rebuild. Hub washers were used to take up the difference between 1.8 and 2.0 mm. It’s been snowing every few days. We had a blizzard with 5 inches of snow on Wednesday. Then it got to 60 F for a few days and the black flies came out. It’s snowing again right now.

image.jpg

image.jpg
67D3E53D-97E4-4F67-BE9A-E5E7BBD74822.jpeg
 
It finally got up to 40F and it quit raining this morning. Maybe 50sF tomorrow. My new pedal bearings came in the mail today. I cleaned and rebuilt the right pedal. I surface cleaned the left one, disassembled it and now it is soaking in solvent until tomorrow, when I plan to rebuild it.
image.jpg
 
it's amazing how contemporary this bike still looks. You could hang out with hipsters on their fixes downtown, and at first, maybe no one would notice.
 
I learned to "tie and solder" spokes in the 1970s when I learned to build wheels.

You never mention spoke material. The old spokes would have been bare steel, that's why they rusted away. We see that on countless old bicycle wheels from the 1880s to the 1950s. Galvanized aka zinc plating came next for bicycle spokes and it took them 50 years to make galvanizing good enough. Fresh zinc is shiny but those turn dark and dingy looking and can rust if there is even the slightest scratch. Stainless steel spokes from France arrived about 1970. Black spokes got popular about 2000. Modern black spokes are what I call mystery meat spokes. You never know what's under the black coating. Some are simply painted over bare steel, others have a more durable black coating. Most broken spokes today are black due to most being rather weak spokes. The latest bsos have the thinnest ever plating that doesn't hold up well. There are other types of modern spokes: aluminum from Mavic and variations on high tech plastics like Vectran on Kevlar for boutique race wheels. I prefer to use DT brand stainless steel spokes, even on vintage restorations because they are stronger, will last forever and look great.

Tie & solder works best on zinc spokes. The solder doesn't want to stick to stainless and the soldered tie can just slide on those. You get the extra weight without the added strength. Clean all the oils off the spokes before soldering. The type of wire you use matters too. Copper, brass, steel, zinc plated, etc. Most builders would solder for 100% coverage of the wire. 26 or 28 or 30 swg. A finer gauge is easier to wrap and and tuck the ends in. Someone who ties fishing lures could be very good at this. Another technique I learned was to use copper or brass for the looks and then use crazyglue for the hold.

The whole point of tie & solder is to stiffen up the wheels. It was used on track bikes raced on velodromes where loading can be much greater at high speeds in the turns. Plus the materials available then were pretty poor by today's standards.

For your vintage CB with the wood clincher rims is a cool idea. It recreates the original concept and helps strengthen the weaker wood rims. You just can't get the spokes as tight without ripping the wood apart.

I've seen other ride-able antique bike wheels rebuilt with aluminum rims with a faux wood grain paint added. Velocity used to sell rims painted like that but I haven't seen any for sale for 15 years. Home stores have the faux paint kits.

And yeah, the old single tube tires are very expensive. Last I saw for sale were $160 each and that was 30 years ago. I've seen display only bikes with rubber tubing wired on in lieu of actual tires.

FYI, there are air pressure limits on those wood rims that you should not ignore.

YouTube has the fascinating videos on the Ghisallo wood rim factory in Italy. Well worth watching.

My oldest bike is from about 1922 and it has wood rims. They were painted over in silver paint to make them look like metal as metal rims were the hot thing then. The paint was so good I thought they were metal clad over wood until the joint started splitting open.
 
I learned to "tie and solder" spokes in the 1970s when I learned to build wheels.

You never mention spoke material. The old spokes would have been bare steel, that's why they rusted away. We see that on countless old bicycle wheels from the 1880s to the 1950s. Galvanized aka zinc plating came next for bicycle spokes and it took them 50 years to make galvanizing good enough. Fresh zinc is shiny but those turn dark and dingy looking and can rust if there is even the slightest scratch. Stainless steel spokes from France arrived about 1970. Black spokes got popular about 2000. Modern black spokes are what I call mystery meat spokes. You never know what's under the black coating. Some are simply painted over bare steel, others have a more durable black coating. Most broken spokes today are black due to most being rather weak spokes. The latest bsos have the thinnest ever plating that doesn't hold up well. There are other types of modern spokes: aluminum from Mavic and variations on high tech plastics like Vectran on Kevlar for boutique race wheels. I prefer to use DT brand stainless steel spokes, even on vintage restorations because they are stronger, will last forever and look great.

Tie & solder works best on zinc spokes. The solder doesn't want to stick to stainless and the soldered tie can just slide on those. You get the extra weight without the added strength. Clean all the oils off the spokes before soldering. The type of wire you use matters too. Copper, brass, steel, zinc plated, etc. Most builders would solder for 100% coverage of the wire. 26 or 28 or 30 swg. A finer gauge is easier to wrap and and tuck the ends in. Someone who ties fishing lures could be very good at this. Another technique I learned was to use copper or brass for the looks and then use crazyglue for the hold.

The whole point of tie & solder is to stiffen up the wheels. It was used on track bikes raced on velodromes where loading can be much greater at high speeds in the turns. Plus the materials available then were pretty poor by today's standards.

For your vintage CB with the wood clincher rims is a cool idea. It recreates the original concept and helps strengthen the weaker wood rims. You just can't get the spokes as tight without ripping the wood apart.

I've seen other ride-able antique bike wheels rebuilt with aluminum rims with a faux wood grain paint added. Velocity used to sell rims painted like that but I haven't seen any for sale for 15 years. Home stores have the faux paint kits.

And yeah, the old single tube tires are very expensive. Last I saw for sale were $160 each and that was 30 years ago. I've seen display only bikes with rubber tubing wired on in lieu of actual tires.

FYI, there are air pressure limits on those wood rims that you should not ignore.

YouTube has the fascinating videos on the Ghisallo wood rim factory in Italy. Well worth watching.

My oldest bike is from about 1922 and it has wood rims. They were painted over in silver paint to make them look like metal as metal rims were the hot thing then. The paint was so good I thought they were metal clad over wood until the joint started splitting open.
They are stainless. The tie and solder job was for originality. The next owner could try and get zinc 305 mm spokes, but long butts and different hub and nipple diameters, good luck. You could never source spokes like the originals. But at least they know the originals were tied. The original tie tie job was weird, it was only as thick as two wires wraps, but I think it was a hog ring that was soldered. That’s what it looked like anyway.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top