Derailleur advice, retrofit old bike to new gear, Test Ride

[horsefarmer]

I'm glad shimano standardized on a 1.7:1 ratio for their indexed derailleurs and shifters. All my stuff is the older 6 7 and 8 speed shimano and clone stuff from big box kinda bikes. So far pretty much mix and match and plays well with whatever index shifter and chain I have in my stash.
Great to know the history of all this more exotic advanced stuff, but I'm just glad to have gears!

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

With multiple cogs and a derailleur, the hanger is, for sure, the most important 1st. check. Gotta be true to horiz. & perpendicular. Also, don't forget the "slop" or play side to side on the derailleur itself, as worn pivots in the derailleur will also cause ghost shifting if the cage moves side to side enough in rough terrain, especially 9spd and up, where the separation between cogs is tight. Not so much a problem with 5-7spd as the distance between cogs is greater. Throw it away if it is sloppy or more headaches are sure to come.
Clean cables and housing and proper routing of cables is high on the list of to-do's as well. And lastly, take apart, clean and lube your derailleur pulley wheels. They can and will cause all kinds of problems if not running drag-free. Great discussion!

 

[Bicycle808]

I'm glad shimano standardized on a 1.7:1 ratio for their indexed derailleurs and shifters. All my stuff is the older 6 7 and 8 speed shimano and clone stuff from big box kinda bikes. So far pretty much mix and match and plays well with whatever index shifter and chain I have in my stash.
Great to know the history of all this more exotic advanced stuff, but I'm just glad to have gears!

Don't get me wrong; I LOVE the 6 thru 9 (and road 10) speed stuff having the same 1.7:1 actuation ratio. It's incredibly awesome. Which is why i despise the fact that the 11-speed stuff and the 10 speed mtb stuff is 1.2:1. It means you cannot run the ten speed bar-con shifters with the ten-speed mtb rear derailer. And, if you wanna run a mtb cassette, the ten-speed road derailer won't handle the spread. So, you gotta run the 9speed mtb stuff, which tops out at Acera now (uck!!!) but i'm the kinda guy with some Deore, LX, XT, and XT-R derailers with x-long cages on-deck. Set for a while.

It just sucks b/c i used to rely on shimano. You could easily mix'n'match, and buy their stuff cheap and new online. Now, you can't mix and match the new stuff, and the online retailers are severely limited in terms of what they can offer.

 

[Bicycle808]

...Also, don't forget the "slop" or play side to side on the derailleur itself, as worn pivots in the derailleur will also cause ghost shifting if the cage moves side to side enough in rough terrain, especially 9spd and up, where the separation between cogs is tight. Not so much a problem with 5-7spd as the distance between cogs is greater. Throw it away if it is sloppy or more headaches are sure to come.

I'm worried that, in @Indyjps's case, the high-mileage ol' XT derailer might have some worn pivots. He's saying that the derailer comes out of adjustment, which makes me suspect cable issues or other stuff, as pivot slop would manifest immediately after the tune, and you couldn't really ever get it in-tune off of the stand with slop. But that's what kills old derailers, assuming they don't take a hit from a stump on the trail; the pivots wear out and there ain't much to do about that...

 

[Indyjps]

Here's what I'm working with. Put a few miles on this today, screwing around with it in the side of the road as I went. Little better.

Definitely looks like the hanger is jacked up. I'll read thru Sheldon Browns process on truing it up. Then start over, recable the bike.
How do I check for worn pivots?

 

[Bicycle808]

Can I take this derailleur and go to click shift? Will it index correctly? I don't mind recabling it all, checking frame alignment, rebuilding the freewheel. Whatever it takes. I just want it to work again.

If my memory serves me right, that bike came with the first gen XT derailer, aka "deerhead," which is set up for friction. You'll know it's a deerhead b/c it'll have a portrait on it, like so:

You'll need an rd-m730 or better to index, which looks more like this:

I think your bike was made in '89, which would put it right in the thick of rd-m730, but if i recall correctly, the Nashbar bikes had some NOS Deerhead stuff on it.... a 1989 bike with 1984-1987 components hung on it. Deerhead is "friction" group.

How bout take some pics of the derailer, plus i'm really interested in which crank its got, as they never made a Deerhead XT crank; they just used road touring cranks instead. First XT cranks were 730 series..

If you wanna go index, you'll need a newer derailer. But, don't cheap out too hard. Finding 6-speed ndexed shifters that aren't plastic will be hard. If I were you, I'd get a new 7speed freewheel, an index-compat shimano rear derailer, and hunt down some decent 7-speed clickers.

 

[Bicycle808]

View attachment 49656
View attachment 49658

Here's what I'm working with. Put a few miles on this today, screwing around with it in the side of the road as I went. Little better.

Definitely looks like the hanger is jacked up. I'll read thru Sheldon Browns process on truing it up. Then start over, recable the bike.
How do I check for worn pivots?

Just saw this post. Thanks for the pics! Looks like the derailer was already changed at some point. That 200GS should index without any problems at all. To check for worn pivots, I kinda grab the main knuckle and wiggle, to check for play.... which works if you know what a tight derailer feels like, but you BMXicans don't have the derailer-savvy for that. I think you ought to address the hanger first, then we can look at the derailer and other considerations to build what you want. But, you'll never get anywhere without sorting the hanger first.... unless you just go singlespeed LOL.

With the hanger that tweaked, if i were you, I'd take the wheels off, check alignment, re-align the stays if you can, and then I'd look at fixing the hanger.... in that order. If you gt the hanger right and then re-align the stays, you might muss the hanger up again.

That's a great frame, and imho, definitely worth the time, effort, and upgraded parts.

 

[Indyjps]

Thanks all for the help and advice. I really like the frame, good fit for me, full chromoly.

The bike is set up as friction now.

Is the shimano 200 GS good, bad, crap? Sounds like it's indexable. I'll give it a shake and see how it feels.

Here's the crankset, FC-6206 175mm biospace 48, 38, 28 rings. Love the OG suntours, think I'll pull them for some new VPs though.

 

[Bicycle808]

View attachment 49659 Thanks all for the help and advice. I really like the frame, good fit for me, full chromoly.

The bike is set up as friction now.

Is the shimano 200 GS good, bad, crap? Sounds like it's indexable. I'll give it a shake and see how it feels.

Here's the crankset, FC-6206 175mm biospace 48, 38, 28 rings. Love the OG suntours, think I'll pull them for some new VPs though.

Shimano 200gs was an entry-level group from the early 90s. It was one step up from the bottom for mtbs (there was a 100gs at the bottom) and it was replaced by the Altus group in the mid-90s. I'm pretty sure it's newer than your bike (late 80s for the bike; the 200gs came out in 90 or 91?) and it definitely indexes, made for 7 speed. I think it's pretty good b/c, aside from the pulleys, i think it' all-metal, right? (barrel-adjusters aside...) Something like current-production Tourney is a lot of plastic. If you really want to buy something new, I'd go with the Altus rd-m310 b/c i think the oversize pulley is pimp as all-get-out. And, they're mostly metal, pretty cheap... https://www.niagaracycle.com/catego...-altus-rear-derailleur-7-8-speed-d-att-silver

But yeah, i'd give the 200gs a shot, see how it goes. If it's dead, no big deal. When a Deerhead derailer dies, it's a bit of a tragedy. When a 200GS dies, you just find something to replace it with. Your bike's Deerhead derailer probably died in 1993, when your buddy put this 200GS on there and the 200GS was a cheap and readily available compatible replacement...

Pull those pedals if you must, but keep them. Or, sell them. They're worth a bit of coin. Don't just toss'm out. The VP-747 pedals are pretty much the low-quality, no-guilt knock-off. I run those on a lot of my bikes.

Thanks for posting the crank! That's the crank that Shimano used as part of the Deerhead group, even though it's their touring crank from the early 80s. Quality piece right there. Personally, i love Bio-Pace. I have a half-step+granny biopace set-up on my Fuji Touring Series V. I'll be following your rehab of this bike; it's a really cool project.

 

[Indyjps]

Great background in the 200GS. I won't get too excited either way on it. Good price on the altus.

Yeah, the suntours are about $75 or more the way they sit, the cages are only slightly scuffed. Don't wanna bang them up. I've got a couple sets of VP's, other than all of them being super tight when shipped, they're good to go. Might check out the slim platforms as well.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

Definitely looks like the hanger is jacked up. I'll read thru Sheldon Browns process on truing it up. Then start over, recable the bike.
How do I check for worn pivots?

That hanger is really bent. Also, when you replace the housing/cables, make sure the rear cable housing from the frame stop to the derailleur itself is about an inch plus longer. I can see it is kinked going into the derailleur, not good. An inch longer housing will smooth the transition out, making the cable slide easier. Make sure you use cable housing ferrules on the housing ends. It will help straighten out the transition into the derailleur....

 

[Duchess]

I have a 200GS on my "USAAF" bike (1993 Giant Innova) and it is mostly metal. It's been a workhorse for me and I've never had an issue even with a good number of miles, neglect, some hits off-roading, and several different kinds of shifters (currently, it's working quite well off an indexing 8-speed downtube shifter mounted to a custom bracket on the handlebars). Obviously, if yours is bad, it's bad, but I'd rather have one of these older ones than its newer equivalent made of plastic. Judging by the resiliency of mine (I've only replaced the worn jockey wheels), I'd bet it will work fine once you get everything realigned and change out/fix that housing where it goes into the cable stop on the RD.

 

[Indyjps]

Good call on the cable housing loop, I'll get it fixed up. I did not pay any attention to it, these are the same cables and housings I rode back then.

 

[horsefarmer]

Good comments Re plastic rear derailleurs. Picked up some project bikes at a police auction and could not believe the broken shimano derailleur on one was plastic, have to do careful shopping if I buy new one.

 

[Indyjps]

Wanted to get on this and provide an update since everyone's been so helpful.

Bikes on the rack, wheels and derailleur off.

Checking things over, I confess to creating my own problem. When I turn the bars hard to the left, the rear derailleur housing goes tight enough that it moves the cable slightly. So I can fix that with a recable.

I checked the sideplay on the rear derailleur, compared it to my wife's bike she bought new and has less than 100 street miles, shimano acera. The side play in the 200GS cage is consistent with the acera. 200GS is not the top derailleur in the line up, but I don't think it's shot. Undecided if I'm going to buy a new one yet. I may try some click shifters with it.

Hope to get a string on it tonight after the kids go to bed and see how tweaked the chainstays are. Width is good compared to the wheel. Eyeballing it, looks like both dropouts are wonky to vertical.

Need to straighten the hanger for sure.

 

[Bicycle808]

Wanted to get on this and provide an update since everyone's been so helpful.

Bikes on the rack, wheels and derailleur off.

Checking things over, I confess to creating my own problem. When I turn the bars hard to the left, the rear derailleur housing goes tight enough that it moves the cable slightly. So I can fix that with a recable.

I checked the sideplay on the rear derailleur, compared it to my wife's bike she bought new and has less than 100 street miles, shimano acera. The side play in the 200GS cage is consistent with the acera. 200GS is not the top derailleur in the line up, but I don't think it's shot. Undecided if I'm going to buy a new one yet. I may try some click shifters with it.

Hope to get a string on it tonight after the kids go to bed and see how tweaked the chainstays are. Width is good compared to the wheel. Eyeballing it, looks like both dropouts are wonky to vertical.

Need to straighten the hanger for sure.

I'd definitely try to keep the 200GS going; it's going to be compatible with any 7 speed shimano index shifters, and Shimano 7 speed freewheels (or Sunrace Shimano compatible freewheels) are readily attainable and cheap. If you're going used, just remember that the Campy and SunTour 7speeds are spaced different, and won't index properly. All current-production 7speed freewheels will be Shimano-spaced, so you're good to go.

Once you get alignment sorted (if need be) and you get the hanger straight (good luck.... there is a special tool to do this properly, but if i recall, it's like $70 and you'll still have a time getting it right...) some new cables and compat shifters/freewheel are all you'll need.

 

[Bicycle808]

PS- the tool you want is the Park DAG-2. There's also a DAG-2.2; i'm not sure what the differences are, but a quick googling or a perusal of the parktool site will clear that up, i imagine.

 

[user 135]

The derailer align tool is one my favorites, but usually you can do an okay job using a adjustable wrench and eyeballing it. or check out this way....though I would use some extra nuts on both side of the axle rod.

 

[squirreldh]

And be careful! Though your frame is steel, it is still weakened from the bend. Sometimes heat helps with ones that are really bad, but paint isnt going to like it much. Go slow with the realignment, take your time, dont rush it, how many different ways can I say the same thing? Sometimes I use a bolt in the hole that the derailleur screws into to help it maintain its shape and threading, bending the hanger back may cause that hole to get deformed depending on how much material is around it. I have used the adjustable wrench technique in the past, but to get it perfect the DAG tool from park that bicycle808 mentioned is best.

keep the rubber side down!

 

[horsefarmer]

I fixed one hanger that was sloppy shifting with the 12" crescent wrench and eyeball method on a steel frame. Also I tweaked the cage of a shimano rear derailleur that was bent - that one was steel. I like the video method too. Main thing I try to do is look at bike from rear and try to get an idea if the chain is running straight and true over the gear and thru the cage.